we got to episode 50, woo! Thank you so much for all your support and cheering on. I really fucking love this project and I could not be happier to share my interview with the wonderful Gina Wisotzky to mark the occasion. Listening back just now my heart is so full – there was so much inspiration, acceptance and truth in what Gina shared. Here is some of what we talked about:
- Navigating the pandemic with grit and clarity
- Being present with ourselves in our businesses and really listening to what is needed
- Boldly changing directions when the time is right
- Making space for intuition in our decision making processes
- DIY media and walking away from social media
I’m so happy to know Gina and to know I am not alone in working all these strange, difficult and exciting things out.
Gina Wisotzky is a tarot reader, teacher, writer and the creator of Incandescent Tarot. With four years’ experience reading professionally and almost twenty practicing and studying the cards, she believes in tarot’s power as a transformative tool anyone can use. When not reading tarot, writing, or doing intuitive work, you can find her gardening, cooking over-elaborate meals, and wrangling her menagerie of animal companions in Durham, North Carolina.
Here is more info about the Embodied Business Community I mentioned: https://yarrowdigital.com/diy-business-school/
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⋒ Hi, my name is Yarrow and I am your host.
My Embodied Business podcast explores what it means to build a small business with integrity, joy and anti capitalist values. I interview other small business owners and offer solo episodes in which I am answering questions around tech, strategy, more ethical marketing and creative livelihoods.
You can learn more about my web design, tech support, mentoring and community offerings at YarrowDigital.com
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Yarrow Magdalena 0:00
Hey, everyone, my name is Yarrow and you’re listening to the DIY small business podcast. Thank you so much for joining me, this episode is really special for two reasons. Number one, as we have come to episode number 50, which is really cool. This podcast isn’t as old as my father one day two awards, which is approaching 100 episodes soon. So that’s pretty cool. But it is also really close to my heart. And I’m just really happy to have gathered this body of work and to get to speak to so many different people and also answer questions and solo episodes. So yeah, celebrate with me. And the second reason this is special is that I interviewed Dina from incandescent Taro and I, I just listened back to this episode. And I don’t say that lightly, but my heart is so full, because it’s been really beautiful to, to just speak to Gina and feel less alone and navigating everything that’s happening this year. I really loved watching her journey and the ways that she has pivoted in her business creatively and structurally. And there’s just been so much nodding along in this episode, really. And I hope that you’re listening and feeling inspired to find courage to bring more of your own intuition into your business decisions. And really remember that you are running a small business because you want to make the rules. And that you get to do that. And that you really get to listen to yourself and what you need and how you want to be a service. That’s some of the stuff that I’ve taken away from listening. So yeah, I really hope this serves you well. And not any updates from me, I’m recording this intro mid November and kind of winding down for the year, I have one more exciting project for web design that I’m working on this year. And otherwise, I’m taking a long break over the holidays, for three weeks make hand is blocked, because I want to give myself time and space to process. And if you can, and if that’s available to you, I really encourage you to go ahead and lock your calendar as well. Because it’s been a lot and you deserve that downtime. As we all do, really. In the New Year and mid January, I’m going to reopen the embody business community and there’s going to be 15 places you can get on a waitlist if you like I’m going to link to that in the show notes. And that’s probably going to be the main way you can work with me in 2021. Because I’m I’m limiting the one on one work that I offer to focus more on the community, which has become such a beautiful place to be in. There’s a lot more live content. Now we have a monthly live tag drop in support session now. We have group support session or group coaching, if you will, tonnes of live workshops, co working spaces, and just a lot of engagement in the community on mighty networks. And I feel it’s really become the beautiful, creative and supportive space that I always wanted it to be. And so I want to give this all my love and attention. And I also think that financially it’s a more affordable way for people to receive long term support as an alternative to working with me one on one for a shorter period of time. So yeah, I hope you’ll take that out. And I would love to hear what you think about this episode. Thank you for listening. Hey, everyone, I’m so happy to bring another interview session to you. I haven’t interviewed a lot of people for the business podcast this year. So I’m extra excited to have Gina of incandescent Taro here today to talk about well many things we’ve just said there’s so much on our minds and like we really open. But I think part of the reason I’ve invited Gina is that I followed her story for a few years. We first met on Instagram and I almost want to say in the old days when this is where I used to meet people because I want to already live in a future where we freed ourselves from social media basically. So anyway, Gina and I met back on Instagram and the old days and I’ve received readings from her I so so love and appreciate her newsletter and I’ve seen her pivot and her business a few times in ways that really deeply inspired me and I think we’re recording this at the end of October 2020 pivoting has been a big thing for all of us. So I thought this is a beautiful thing to dive a little bit deeper into. So Gina, thank you so much for making time. You’re so wonderful. I love your work and I’m so excited to talk to you.
Gina Wisotzky 4:45
I’m so glad to be here and the feeling is like beyond mutual. I remember you were one of the first people I found on the great wild internet and I love that we can say like old timey style back in the old days of him. To gramme, which I feel like has gone through 20 iterations since then. But you were one of the first people that I found that I really resonated with. And so it’s really lovely hearing you say those things about my work, because I feel like you were sort of the, the leader of all those changes, and I watched you do it. I was like, okay, like, here’s someone who’s really being authentic, and present with themselves. And that was so nice and refreshing to see online.
Yarrow Magdalena 5:30
Oh, Tina, thank you so much. I had no idea that, yeah, I had no idea. So that’s really sweet to hear. Thank you so much. I want to begin by just kind of giving people an overview of what you do. And I know you do different things, but in your own words, like what feels true at the moment.
Gina Wisotzky 5:49
I really like that you say in the moment, because I’ve been trying to find, you know, good, a good name for myself, without self descriptions, not always my strong suit. But at the most broad level. I’m calling myself right now a tarot reader and a spiritual writer. So I do a lot of tarot readings online. I’ve been reading since I was 12. So almost 20 years Exactly. And I’ve had my business for about four years now, which is crazy to say out loud. So I offer a lot of tarot readings, I used to teach a lot. And now I’m trying to transition to online teaching, which is my exciting new frontier. And then I also do you click basically consulting sessions around spirituality and intuition.
Yarrow Magdalena 6:35
Yes, I love them. And I think you’re holding such a beautiful place for people to really have a sounding board. I remember my last reading that I had with you. Wow. Which was just yeah, it was really a peanut stir is with me today. Because I think, especially in a time, like this year, where so much is changing. And it really just brings up more questions than it gives us answers, it’s really good to have that kind of space to feel stuff out. And also not to do it alone all the time. Because obviously, I do read for myself as well. And I really value that as a practice. But oh my gosh, like I can just, you know, things can just amplify and bounce between the walls of my brain. No one else is around. So yeah, thank you. That’s, that’s beautiful. And I would love to kind of hear what the pandemic has been like for you so far, and what it has shifted in your business, you’ve already mentioned that you’re shifting more to online teaching, and I would love to hear more about that. Wow.
Gina Wisotzky 7:37
I mean, the pandemic has been such a wild experience in so many ways. And for all of us, you know, I was really, I think, in the circles we run in and the people we work with, there’s a lot of highly sensitive people, people who are really in tune with their feelings with life itself, and its uncertainties. And I’ve noticed a lot of them saying and my experience as well being that there was something clarifying about the pandemic, and that a lot of the injustice and inequalities and the, the toughness of life became suddenly a topic everyone was discussing. And so it’s a weird feeling to have that sense of acknowledgement, like, oh, finally, we’re talking about these things. It’s really scary and sad and tough. That for me, personally, I was surprised to have a sense of relief around it as well, like, now Now we can see how high the stakes are a lot of the times and you know just how uncertain Our world is. And I for me that brought a lot of clarity. It made it a lot of things I was hemming and hawing about, like no longer issues. It’s like, Oh, I just have to do this. Like, there was an end, you know, a lot of that was not so spiritual and lovely. It was also like financial and like, what am I working with? How can I support myself? What are my skills, what really matters to me.
Unknown Speaker 9:14
Gina Wisotzky 9:16
it’s been a wild ride to be tossed into this new normal, as we all like to say, and to just have to ride everything as it comes in to be more creative and innovative in the moment. And it’s such a trade off, you know, sometimes it’s it’s exhilarating, sometimes it’s incredibly stressful. But I think it has made me realise just how much I value certain things and how I don’t have the time to personally put that off or you know, devalue it. And do all my weird Weasley like, oh, now’s not the time or I can’t do that or, you know, that’s not really important. So there has been some clarity there. But also a lot of chaos.
Yarrow Magdalena 10:03
Yeah, totally for sure. I feel really similar. There’s been so much clarification and at the same time, a sense of urgency, but also this deep need for rest and slowness. And sometimes there’s bouncing between these things and finding, like real gold and the middle, where I’m allowing the urgency of like, Oh, yeah, I really need to cut these things out. Like, this is ridiculous. I don’t have time for that anymore. And I need to urgently come back to myself, and what’s important to me, and that’s also rest, and so on. And so maybe that change will take time. But I really feel so strongly that I do want to let this time change me and my business. I think that’s really important. I don’t want to look back five years from now and be like, well, I don’t know I was at home, I guess that’s what happened in 2020.
Gina Wisotzky 11:02
I wonder, you know, if, like, if just noticing the people who I didn’t realise the deep extent to which I am like an at home person by nature, I was doing a lot of just like, if you were to like, give me a label, I’m like an introvert with extrovert tendencies. And so in the before times, it was really easy for me to just like, spin out into the extrovert tendencies and think that was sustainable. And a part of the pandemic has been really kind of amusing to me. It’s like, Oh, I really like having space and time and quiet. Those are actually totally non negotiable. And I think a lot of people who are similarly oriented are like, looking around their house, like, I could just be here. This could be a regular feature of my life. And I didn’t know that beforehand. That’s been kind of a surprising thing. Like, no, this is really good for me.
Yarrow Magdalena 12:01
Yeah. Yeah, totally. And I think, yeah, it’s really good to develop language around holding both these things like the grief and the chaos and the stress fullness of it. And the pain of seeing so many people really suffer. And also saying, like, oh, wow, I’m so lucky, I have this home, I get to be and then it’s really quite cosy in here. And I enjoy my own company in the company of the people and animals that I live with. I know you’re living with some really cool animals that they say I think, you know, it’s a pandemic, so
Gina Wisotzky 12:36
you can’t run away from yourself, like I just stuck in my house or stuck with my creatures. And there have been in my business, you know, there just been a lot of things where I’ve tried to weasel out of my true nature. And one part of my true nature is that I’m always gonna have a lot of animals around me, even though I like to talk the talk of, you know, simplifying, and, you know, one day we’ll travel because we’ll have one dog instead of three.
Unknown Speaker 13:04
But yeah, right now, I
Gina Wisotzky 13:05
think it’s two, yes, two dogs, we found a bird. So now we have another bird, we have a pigeon, and a cat. So they’re delightful. They’re all crazy. They have to be corralled. Now, because they make a lot of noise. So this babysitting
Yarrow Magdalena 13:27
sounds like an amazing pag. You already touched on something that I kind of want to expand on, which is this, like, being in words and keeping some things to ourselves. And I want to kind of see how that fits into social media as well, because you’re not on Instagram anymore. But you’re exploring other platforms. And I love I would love to hear more about what that’s been like, and whether that’s kind of scary. And like, what is what are you gaining from that?
Gina Wisotzky 13:54
That was a really big one for my business. I actually, when I started my business four years ago, I wasn’t on Instagram at all, not even personally, and I actually didn’t know how Instagram worked. I thought you just followed people like there is no like avenue to see anything else randomly. So it’s pretty funny to just dive in. And I quickly got sucked in and overwhelmed. And so I was on Instagram for about three years. I think I had a personal account. At one point I spent most of my time on my business account, I had a Facebook, I tried to tweet, it was not successful. I was just lurking and looking at other people’s tweets, which is really entertaining and very dangerous for me. But it was an interesting experience since I had not much exposure. I had kind of gone in and out of social media before then too. And I didn’t even sort of the classic, you know, like a frog in the pot of water that flows. gets turned up. And eventually it’s boiling. I wasn’t realising just how much my brain was getting clogged with information about other people about their businesses, about how you should be doing things, how much you should be sharing. And so, in a way, just diving into it, I didn’t have a moment to really ask myself what I wanted. And it was also my first solo business, too. So I was feeling this intense pressure to do everything and be really visible and just make it all happen. But the funny part about it was that it completely paralysed me. So I was doing, like five things really poorly, and feeling a tonne of pressure, and then like, irritation and guilt around that, like, Oh, well, I should be doing this. I should I be posting more regularly on Instagram. I’m just bad at it. It was a really big ol swamp that I was getting stuck in all the time. And I mean, it took me like, three years to get out of it. And I think there’s so much there’s so much pressure around it. And there’s no right or wrong answer. That’s another thing too. Like for me, I just had to really look at myself and the quality of life and be like, is this helping or hurting me. And some people can use social media and like the most amazing, fluid authentic way. And I was just running up against this brick wall time and time again, I was like you are not one of these people, there is no middle ground for you, you are going to get sucked into rabbit holes, you’re going to get caught in comparisons. And interestingly to like, all of that had a really big creative spiritual component to it as well, because I was taking in so much information. And I wasn’t allowing or even I don’t think it was possible. Like there was no way for me to cultivate an equal or greater amount of space for my own creativity, my own spirituality, my own business savvy to come through. So I got really stuck. And, you know, I wish I could have said that, like I took a big stand like during the like heyday of my full time business. And it was like no longer. I didn’t I have like a crisis. I was like about the scrap my business completely. And so the prelude to that was getting off social media. And the pandemic kind of saved my butt because I was really close to getting rid of everything at that point. And then I had to get scrappy and creative with income and what I was spending my time on in my home. And then I decided to just try without social media, like really in a concerted way. So it’s been a rocky road. And it’s definitely been something that I was, I had to be like, fully immersed in and like struggle through to see like, is this worth it for me? Is this worth it for my life, my business? who I want to be as a person and how I want to spend my time because, you know, I think the biggest thing when I look back is like it was so much time. And a lot of that time was not. I don’t like the word productive because it feels like we should always be productive. But it wasn’t productive on many different levels, in terms of feeding my soul and what makes my life positive and beautiful and complex and not always positive but rich.
And it definitely was like a huge volunteer on my business because I was just like hobbling around like, oh, nothing’s adequate. I’m just spreading myself so thin. So I’ve been really surprised at how open and inspired I am not spending time in those spaces.
Yarrow Magdalena 19:07
Yes, I was just nodding a language people can hear. See. So yeah, just want to affirm that I resonate so deeply with so much of what you said I have a similar experience of really feeling this openness and inspiration and the the knowing that the overwhelm can come so quickly. And I think the narrative is so strong, especially when you’re starting out like you have to be on there all the time and ideally on multiple platforms, whether or not they actually skewed your message or the kind of environment that you want to be and like Twitter being such a good example. I took that really serious in the beginning and I build up to I think 4000 followers before I deleted it because Fucking hell like it’s so fast paced that I just don’t, I’m not suited to those kinds of conversations, right? Like I have an idea and then like, you refresh two minutes later and because they It’s like on the ship has sailed. Totally. And so like, if I had had the courage and the mindfulness or like, the intention in the beginning of my business of really sitting down and be like, what kind of content I might actually enjoy and creating, like, what is sustainable for me to do on a regular basis, it would have been so clear that that’s not rich. But then on the other hand, I also want to have so much compassion for us just doing this thing that we didn’t know how to do that we’ve done for the first time that really no one teaches you how to do. And of course, you look around yourself, and you’re like, Well, you know, like, what’s working here? What can I do? And what can I do? That’s free as well? Like, what’s the starting point? that’s relatively low risk, at least financially? And I think that brings up another interesting question, because people always say, well, social media is free. But I really want to question that and say, we are pouring so much energy into creating free content. And that is a currency and that is taking time away, that we could be making money in other ways. So this is not free at all. I am on Instagram at the moment, which is alright, but I think it is alright, because I don’t have a smartphone anymore. So I don’t have an app, I can scroll in bed, you know, morning or evening, I can just open it in my browser occasionally. And I go to specific people that I want to see. And then sometimes I post through my browser, but that’s like, I’m just like you, I also would have otherwise felt unable to find some kind of middle ground or balance. So that works for me. But last year, between August and December, I took a complete break as well, and wasn’t on at all. And I really saw that my business just wasn’t crumbled. That crumbling the way I had always thought it would I had more time to record podcast episodes and write themes and connect with people and lots of other ways and really came to appreciate them so much. And so I’m sorry, this isn’t a nice. I would love to hear like what have you found that is exciting? Or like, when you’re you know, you’ve regained so much time now? Where are you investing that and what feels good in terms of connecting with people and building community?
Gina Wisotzky 22:25
That’s such a good question. You just have so many things. I was like, remember that amazing point. And it’s so true, you know, to go way back to the beginning, you know, when he said that, that’s really good to have compassion around these things. I totally agree. And I think, you know, even though it was such a slog at times, and I really felt like in it, I’m the type of person where I really need to experience something fully to, you know, and that this can be a flaw sometimes, because that was a lot of time of my life. But I really have to feel like I’ve explored all the options or veto exhausted is probably a good word because I felt pretty exhausted. But exhausted the opportunities out there. Because I think those realisations to really lasting because you have this sense of thoroughness. And like no, I really, I really did that for me that those platforms were, were not the right place. And, and back to what you’re asking. I think that’s kind of the missing question that I have to frequently return to. It’s definitely not a done deal. But like, Where do I communicate the best? Where do I feel inspired to create? That’s been an really interesting thing to see. I think, you know, when, when I was younger, I had the sense of limitless possibility. And also, it was very like cocky about my abilities. So it’s like, well, I can learn anything, I can make myself do anything. Sounds healthy.
Unknown Speaker 24:00
Gina Wisotzky 24:01
but recently just realising, you know, just because I could, doesn’t mean I should, and then more disturbingly, the older I get, and the more I grow, to know myself and what I need, there’s this kind of like, Oh, I actually can’t make myself do that anymore. Like, I will rebel. Like I will drag my feet, I will not be sharing, or I will not be creating. And it’s not because I’m not trying hard enough, it’s because it’s not the right place. Which is a little bittersweet, because you want to think that you could just do anything. But why torture yourself. So when I got rid of social media, it was a lot easier to look at the Internet as a place where you could really work with things creatively. Like I think back when Instagram was like, baby platform and everyone Do you see this with like any platform like Tick Tock now, which I feel like has gotten more solidified. But people, it’s like the Wild West. Everyone’s like, okay, we have this new place. But we could do anything here. And so there’s all this innovation and sort of like open minded engagement with technology. And so when I got off of Instagram, which was really tough for me, I started looking at other platforms and being like, how can I just use these platforms as myself? Like, how can I use, you know, my newsletter? In a way that feels really inspiring to me? Like, how do I communicate? Like, how do I like to share? It’s not through like monthly long communications that take a lot of editing, like that, for me, like anything that I have to edit a time is where like, my like, demon side comes out, like, as complicated as possible. Let’s torture you with indecision. And, but somehow, you will think that this is going to be this will make it better, it never makes it better. I often never even share those things, because I’ve just tangled myself up in the corner. So I found that, you know, having a newsletter that’s more frequent and more like inspired like fresh in the moment, what I’m thinking about, has been so much fun. And has it’s really been kind of a like a trust fall, you know, like, it takes a lot to walk away from these places that are so established are these ideas about how we should be doing our businesses are sharing online. But I’m always shocked at how much I get responses to things that I’m sharing from a place of inspiration, versus that sort of perfectionist of how do I make the ultimate Taro course. Like, that’s something that I’ve been just bumping my head up against some hilarious ways, because like, you’re doing it the old way, Gina, like you’re doing it the old way, you’re not having fun, and you’re not creating something that you really believe in, because it’s, you’re trying to fit it into this box. But, you know, I feel like if I were to be a person who put post it up on their Wall, my house would be covered in them. For where do you feel inspired and energised? Like, work from that place? Yeah, so that was very rambling.
Yarrow Magdalena 27:24
No, yeah, that’s great. I really feel that yes, that’s so true. And I, I want to name also just for people that are interesting, interested in this, because I’m always like Geeking on about software and alternatives. So you are using substack, I think, for your newsletter, right? And then have a mighty network as well,
Gina Wisotzky 27:44
right? Yes, I do. And I really like both of them. You turned me on to mighty networks, which is amazing. And I feel like that place has so much potential to sort of create a social media esque experience without all of the clutter and noise from advertising outside sources. It feels like such a cosy, safe space. I don’t have any paywalls for it, so it’s free, but you have to request to join. And I feel like that’s really like has this muscle of glow around it where anyone can come in. And you know, you can stay as long as you’d like as long as you’re not being a jerk. No jerks allowed though. But that in and of itself, I think is just for me being a tender soul a nice place to share and I’ve seen people really share in authentic beautiful ways there too. And I really am enjoying substack so I was on MailChimp for a while I wish their interface was more intuitive. I have such a I was always annoying. My my husband complaining about MailChimp, right? He had no clue what I was talking about.
Unknown Speaker 29:01
You need to know.
Gina Wisotzky 29:03
So I finally know that the bullet and jumped ship and then sub stack is just so streamlined, it really works for me, because it’s very simple. And you can just send things out. It’s really affordable, free, actually, which is chef’s kiss delightful. And something about that like uncluttered space really helps me just share spontaneously, and without as much pressure. there’s not as many analytics I think, you know, if you’re the type of person who wants analytics, that’s maybe not the best place for you, but I can get bogged down in that stuff. And it’s not a metric that I’m measuring my success off of. So those are my two main areas right now and then I’m maintaining my my website, which is lovely, but it’s Funny speaking to the days of when free content was, like, expected everywhere. I have so much free content on there. And it’s really nice to just after all those years of creating it, have it be in its little home. And it’s really lovely, how many people it reaches? But I’ll still share it smaller tidbits there as well.
Yarrow Magdalena 30:21
Yeah, I think that’s such a good point about the free content and how that that culture is finally shifting, because I think that’s another thing when we were starting out, I started this business in 2015. And Facebook groups are really big. And the other things that was really big was like one or two page, PDFs, that were like guides that you would offer as a free download to people who would sign up to your newsletter. And it was really aggressive, sometimes like the things people did to build their newsletter list. And then, but also the overwhelm that we created just kind of throwing around all this free stuff and not being mindful of what we could actually engage with, like, how much can we hold at any given point in time and really take in, and then also building these huge newsletters of totally disengaged people that have like maybe used a newsletter address that they only use for spammy stuff, or like, you know, inviting, like 100 newsletters into your inbox, and then never reading any of them. And like, obviously, that’s, that’s totally okay, if that’s your jam. And I don’t think it’s wrong. I think it’s just what we did. And it was okay. And again, we can give ourselves grace. But I really love also seeing that change. And people recognising that small is beautiful. And it’s much more powerful to have a small group of really committed people who just really love what you’re doing, and they want to be hearing from you whether you give them a free PDF
Gina Wisotzky 31:52
that was so popular, and I still have you know that I have a pop up where you can get this. Oh, man, I so extra, like this PDF. If y’all want it like it’s Primo PDF, it was like probably 30 pages long. It’s like its own little mini Tarot instruction booklet. But I remember I would make so many things like that. And it would take me so long, and I you know, never get paid for it, which is say lovey, I am glad to see the shift away from that, because I think it created this huge glut of information. And I actually think it really overwhelmed people to you know, just, you have all these resources, but how do you actually like, integrate and digest them. But it’s funny, because with my newsletter Now, like I have, probably about half of the people came from the PDF zone, and then half of them actually want the newsletter. So whatever I look at my statistics, like this is very evident.
Somebody who just don’t open it, which is totally fine. And then the people who are like,
no, I really want to hear what you have to say. And internet is kind of funny like that, you know, we put out all of these things. And it’s so you just don’t know what they’re going to do what they’re going to bring back into your orbit. And there’s something very magical about that kind of like fishing. Like, yeah, it’s going to find these who’s going to actually get something out of them.
Yarrow Magdalena 33:22
Yeah, I agree. And there really is no way of knowing. And I think sometimes free stuff can also be beautiful. Like I think especially if we do work that is so intimate and personal. It’s really nice to give people a chance to get to know as in a way, like maybe hear your voice, whether that’s in writing or in an audio or video, but just some kind of way of saying like, this is what it feels like to engage with what I do. And you can try that for free. I think there’s nothing inherently wrong with that. It’s just that it has blown up so much and becomes such a series of rated things that I do, like, everyone just feels overwhelmed by. So yeah, that’s really interesting. I’m so happy that you found substack is like a space that really works for you. And yeah, I had another follow up question cut their brain, my pandemic brain. I know for a newsletter. free stuff. Oh, yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes. So you were talking about the content that’s now living on your website? And I think that’s another interesting aspect, isn’t it? Because I think, well, it has so many beautiful aspects to it. Like one I really like seeing how our perspective change over time. And I want to be honest, like I few weeks ago, I deleted a podcast episode for example, because I was so embarrassed. I interviewed someone I was really admiring and still admire this person so much and I was just really sounding like a 15 year old teenager who was like, not, not at all able to string a sentence together. Who hadn’t really prepared I had actually prepared, but I was just reading those in the moment. And I just felt like that episode was just not providing any value. And I was just feeling embarrassed about it. And, and also, there’s other stuff on my website that I look at back and I’m like, yeah, you know, like, that was just a different time in my life I’ve learned and things have grown. But I, I wouldn’t have grown had not given myself that space to do the things and just try it in the first place like Otherwise, I would still be at an employment probably. Oh, gosh. And so. And then the other component is, I think that, like you said, like, you kind of like you’re putting your fishing that out there. And you never know what happens. And it’s so interesting how people sometimes again, ugly, just through Google searches, still find really old content, but really resonate with that. And then and then kind of like, you know, explore whole thing and our world and become subscribers or work with us. And I have a blog post, for example, please don’t look it up, I think I really hope I have, like, we’re all like, have our pens. I think I wrote this when I was 27. It was called What if I want to be single forever? And? Well, it’s just super awkward. Like, I still like the idea. And I think it was an important question to ask at that point in my life. But it was just so it was just there was so much self consciousness and the writing. So it feels really, really awkward. And like, just like cringy anyway, but for years and years, every single day, people would learn an article who had googled What if I want to be single forever. And so you really never know that. So that’s the magic of the internet, right?
Gina Wisotzky 36:47
That is so beautiful. And I’m just like, it’s really fascinating. You I think, every day, I kind of forget how the internet works. I have stuff out there and like people find it. I look at like my website traffic, and people are looking at very sappy y’all. But there are some funny things that you’re just like, this really resonated. And it’s almost like its own little ecosystem that’s formed, like, you know, maybe you, you started the coral reef, but everything’s growing off of it, and you go back and you look and like, Whoa, this is this is really resonating. And there is something so strange about. I mean, I think it’s also the nature of our work too, because it is much more, you know, ephemeral, spiritual, however you want to put it, you know, it really invites intimacy in a different level than say, like, blogging about finance. Who knows, maybe there are some deeply intimate exchanges in that realm. I don’t know about but, you know, there is a really odd and kind of magical thing about like, your past self is almost communicating with people. And I think there’s something really tender about seeing that, like, I have some blog posts to where I’m like, Whoa, girl, like you were, you were in it, and you just put it out there. And yeah, the writing of like, okay, I can see you second guessing yourself. every paragraph, but there it is. And, you know, people are still clicking and reading and finding something. But you know, it is odd, it’s like being a private person, and then having that just be be out in the world. And there’s something really beautiful and i i think that’s too with like the free content. Like I don’t have a lot of regrets around it. I know, I spent a lot of time. But you know, part of my business ethos is really like fostering space for people and inviting people into Tarot and spirituality and intuition. Because I believe it’s accessible to everyone and should be. So even though my, my older, my younger self was like, had no boundaries, it was like, take my 60 page PDF, so I have five. I don’t regret that because it really did give a lot of resources to people. But you know, now my writing is different. Now my sharings different and that’s wonderful, too.
Yarrow Magdalena 39:23
Yeah, I feel like everything we covered in the last 10 minutes or so also speaks to how important that is to play the long game. And I’ve been thinking like this year about what I need to stay committed and almost like, I love the word devotion and this idea that at some point, discipline can become devotion, but really only if we’re doing something that feels truly true for us and is sustainable and regenerative and healing to us on multiple levels and just kind of is what we need to do and I wait before I carry on What was it? Like? I think in that narrative of what I just said, I also want to say, I don’t mean that in a flat, just follow your heart kind of way because I think we glorify that in a way that devalues, feminised, labour and care work, and all the other things that are also part of life and that we should never try to grow beyond if that makes sense. I think there’s something around like, accumulating wealth by following our heart to a point where we get everyone else to do the crappy shit we don’t want to do. And that’s not what I mean, either, right? But I think, yeah, like, how can I How can I create working conditions for myself that that can really be the long game for me, I would love to hear what that means for you at the moment.
Gina Wisotzky 40:49
There’s so much there. And I really like that You, you, oh, my God, that’s another that’s a whole nother podcast discussion.
I think, especially in this line of work and with the culture of the internet over the past, you know, 510 years, leading to all these, like wonderful businesses. And around a lot of this, you know, feminised work, which is like the slick, very emotional, sort of holding space, fostering communication in these areas that don’t get a lot of airtime in our culture. And a lot of times the big growth narratives are really intense and sort of stifle or devalue that, you know, like, you should be moving away from it. Or, you know, and there’s no easy answers to those questions. I think that was one thing that I was really missing in the business narrative was that it’s going to be different for everyone. And you can say, like, yeah, I need strong boundaries, which is like, the buzzword, you know, like, everyone’s talking about the strong boundaries, but those can change. And, you know, a lot of the questions around what that looks like for you, they’re actually really challenging, meaty questions that you have to continually wrestle with. And so, I think, for me to the idea of success was really it came with a tonne of baggage on surprisingly. And I found myself striving for this very, like competitive version of success that really didn’t fit. And it’s been funny, I feel very grateful right now actually, just thinking about it. Like, all the times I felt something was off, have been really important for me personally and professionally, even if they’ve been extremely confusing and frustrating, because they always have that wisdom of, I think you’re trying on something that doesn’t fit you. And I think you’re adopting some goalposts or measurements that you don’t believe in. So that idea of success being like, Oh, I’m gonna make a tonne of money out of my Tarot business. No, I don’t make a tonne of money out of my Tarot business. And I love it so much more, when I don’t. And that’s not to say that there will not be some golden future where I’m raking it in and feeling fulfilled, that would be lovely. But right now and overall, like, my idea of success is more about connecting, honouring the work that I do, and in really working with the people who need to be working with me. And it’s been very interesting to see how much cosier I feel in that space. And I was like this sense of what should I be wanting more like, shouldn’t I be you know, wanting to push myself or like build up my numbers. Whenever I get in that headspace. I kind of lose my train of thought.
Unknown Speaker 43:49
Like, I don’t even know what I want to
Gina Wisotzky 43:50
share anymore. But like all of a sudden, I’m thinking about like what people might like to hear. And that’s usually for like, first siren call off my
Unknown Speaker 43:59
Gina Wisotzky 44:00
how do I manipulate this to, you know, get more followers get more engagement? That’s not really what I want to do. But it’s so insidious is so just there all the time.
Yarrow Magdalena 44:12
And really, as Yes, I loved everything that you just said, I have both my podcast yesterday published an episode called exploring voluntary simplicity, because I never really resonated with the expression of voluntary positivity because I think poverty actually is violent. It’s hardly ever chosen. It’s way more complicated than that. I would never say yeah, that’s what I choose, but really choosing simplicity. It’s like Yeah, totally. Oh, yes. This feels so good. And wait again, there was a really important thing I wanted to forgot. Oh, God, I Oh, yeah. Okay, sorry. Got it back. Got it back. It didn’t slip too far. But what you were saying about like, just I think the phrase redefining Success isn’t even capturing it, because that’s also so overused. And it doesn’t really feel quite true. But I think you’re totally right. It feels so cosy if we’re just focusing on working with the people that were meant to work with us right now. And that feels really good. And also to give ourselves time to not always reach for the next big thing. And, and money is a part of that definitely like in in March, when things first really kicked off, I got so anxious about money, as I am sure many of us were and I lost a few projects that were local businesses that had to shut down. So they weren’t investing in the way that they had initially planned, they would. And so I was really freaking out and just kind of took a moment to allow myself to be with the fear and be like, okay, but what do you have to tell me, like, what is really happening here? And trying to engage with that fear? And I think there’s, there was a younger part of myself that felt so insecure and like so unsupported in the world, and like, having to figure everything out by myself. And I was done asking, like, Okay, what would I need to never worry about money again, and I allowed myself to do this thought experiment of being like, Okay, so how many millions? Would I actually need to have like, a grand a month for the rest of my life, where I can just like, live a small, simple life on a grand mountain, but like, how many millions is like, what do I really need to be able to maybe either live off the interest is something and obviously, like, that’s not something that I that’s in any way within reach, but I was just like, allowing myself to go there. And, and it really, I think, after a few days of panicking, came back to I think this is so much more about creative resilience of experiencing myself being able to pivot in a moment of stress, and trauma, and seeing that I still have really good skills, and I have experience, and I don’t know what it looks like. But it’s not something I can put a number on. This is not about having three or 4 million in the bank, it’s about allowing myself to be human and being part of a community and staying open to creative solutions and working with people. And also accepting limitations, because I think, especially as white people, it’s so important that we ask ourselves what it means to to be right sized, and to kind of serve in the way that we can and, like offer our work to anyone who finds it useful. But not to trip beyond that it’s not necessary anymore. And that is something maybe that’s also not so easy to let go of, because again, the narrative is so big, that bigger is always better and like a bigger following as just more security and tonnes of whatever happens next. And I don’t necessarily think that that’s true.
Gina Wisotzky 47:57
So moving is like an ulterior over here just because really resonate with that. And yeah, there’s something so money is such a triggering topic. And like that idea of scarcity, how much we need to survive. Those are really real, big and important questions. And I think for me, the pandemic really forced me to kind of confront them head on, they had a very similar experience to you where I was like, I’m going to crunch the numbers like, I’m going to actually like, write this down, I went through like this crazy budgeting phase for like, my household finances and my husband and I finally, like really combined our finances and like started practising having a marriage where we were talking about money every week, which has been like shockingly, I mean, maybe not, but it’s very intimate. It’s really cool, actually. And healing to sort of weave in what I think we divorce from meaning or spirituality back in there. You know, I think about the Pentacles and Tarot, like, our money is something we can, we can use, it’s a tool, it can give us stability, but it’s not, you know, we’ve kind of like desecrated the idea of money by making it this like capitalist kind of Boogeyman almost to the point where we’re not really aware of what we’re working with. Because even you know, I do the same thing. I’m like, Alright, I’m gonna put it all on the table. I kind of see it, and I’m like, but Okay, cool. Like, I’m actually not the type of person who’s gonna, like, strive for this, because that’s just not how I operate. It’s funny how you have to kind of balance between the two things. But you know, rewinding a little bit like I think, you know, being like a spiritual entrepreneur, however you want to call it or you know, self employed. Honestly, straight up in any area is really hard. And really, it’s lonely because you’re doing it yourself. You know, you may outsource you may have a team of sorts, but Like, you’re really making a lot of decisions. And I got really burnt out in my business for after the first three years kind of doing too much unpaid work, spreading myself too thin not being not letting myself use social media for my business rather just kind of getting swept along. And so I almost I, you know, kind of wrapped it up, I was like, I’m done. And I thought I did a total 180, which is pretty hilarious. So I was like, No, I need a lot of money now. Like, I can’t live like this, I can’t be scrappy. And so I tried to, to become a software engineer. And I was like, I’m interested in anything like, this is cool. It’ll be fun. And I really enjoyed learning about it. But when it came time to actually make that dream into like, an a career, it was insane how there’s just my whole body, my whole self was like, This isn’t for you, like you could younger you maybe could have pushed through and like, found yourself on the other side with this career. But this is actually not going to feed you. It might give you some money, but that exchange is actually not worth it. And I was just shocked that that was the answer I was getting, and that it was so unequivocal. And so the pandemic, interestingly, kind of brought me to a place where I have a very similar lifestyle as I did before that decision, like I’m doing multiple things for income. And my business is one of those things, and it is so nice, I have such a new appreciation and understanding that like, a little bit of instability is worth it for me if I have creative freedom. And if I’m doing work that spiritually fulfilling like that is really worth so much.
And now I can actually see if I were to do side by side comparison, I could actually give that a number.
It’s not worth that big salary that I could have gotten as a software engineer. And that is kind of insane. But I know now, and I think that’s the strange thing about, you know, having to really own your agency as as a business owner, and also to see what you’re comfortable with in terms of, of instability, however you want to define it. But also recognising to the immense privilege that I have to have had a bit of cushion to figure all of that out, to not be strapped and scrambling. And that is not because I’m smarter than anyone else. It’s because I’m lucky. So, you know, I’m really glad that you brought that up just because I feel like we don’t talk enough about money and like how, how much is going on when we talk about money. Like I could say like 7000 word things. I said a lot.
Yarrow Magdalena 53:07
I mean, and I loved everything that you said, and I could talk to you forever. And I don’t know how but an hour has passed. Oh
my god, I don’t really
want to be respectful of your time and energy. And wow, like time really passed so quickly. I feel like I needed this conversation on so many levels. And so grateful to talk to you, and so excited to share it with everyone. So thank you so much.
Gina Wisotzky 53:31
I feel so rejuvenated. It’s always it’s been such a pleasure to share this time with you that’s really cathartic and inspiring to talk with someone who’s, who’s really been there, and it’s doing so much wonderful work.
Yarrow Magdalena 53:47
Thank you. I just know where people can find you before we go. Yes, so
Gina Wisotzky 53:51
you can find me on incandescent Taro calm. It’s like my central hub. You can also find me on mighty networks. There’s all linked on the website. So if you search for me on mighty networks, I’ll be there and then on substack as well. If you would like to stay in the loop, I am developing a class which I’m very excited about which now I’m like I really needed this talk to like get those juices flowing. But that’s going to be launching in the next month or so. It’s a self paced. It’s a self paced course that really any level of experience can take but it’s going to be focused around Taro and integrating it into your everyday life, sort of finding your own connection with the cards through your experiences as they’re happening. And so I kind of wanted to create like a cosy sweep over or around it because there’s so many courses out there that are very kind of helpful and by the books, but this is a lot more personal and has a lot of my tried and true exercises I do for myself to like dive into Tarot on a deeper level. If I will, thank you so much. Bye bye
Transcribed by https://otter.ai